Navy Vet Sean Wheeler | The Recalibrated Podcast | S01E01

Welcome to The Recalibrated. I'm your

host, Meade Kincke, and

I'm here to take us through

the journey of being in the service,

transitioning out, and

what today looks like.

Our guest, Sean Wheeler, served over 20

years in the United

States Navy from seaman recruit

to lieutenant, travelled to over 30

countries, and provided crucial

information to shape

military action and cooperation around

the world. Today, he is

combating child trafficking

through his nonprofit, Starfish

Ministries. Sean, welcome to the show.

Thank you very much. It's a great

pleasure to be here.

Absolutely wonderful to have you, good sir.

So, let's begin with the why. Why were you

drawn to the Navy, as

opposed to any other service?

Oh, you know, I think I always had a

sense of adventure. And

early on in my childhood,

I got books about sailing and faraway

places. And, you know,

that when in my high school

days, when the recruiters showed up and

they had that tall ship

on there, and it's like,

"Join the Navy! See the world!", and I fell

for the romance of it.

And, you know, it wasn't...

certainly wasn't always that way, but

it's funny, because my

wife now, we visit, we just

got back from Key West, and I just feel

at home around harbours

and ships and, you know,

in Hawaii, I tell her the

ocean still calls to me, so...

Okay. So, no inclinations to be a bird

rather than than a boat?

No, no air force? None of

that?

No, my eyes... I don't have the vision for it.

But I worked with a

lot of aviators. So, you

know, and Marines and Army as well. So

it's, yeah, it was a good run.

I like it. So as far as, you know, let's

say humble beginnings.

What was it like... your journey

starting out as an E1? What did... the what,

the where, the how?

Tell us the whole thing.

Well, you mentioned briefly about my

nonprofit work today. I

was I grew up in an abusive

situation. And so I was on my own at 16.

18 rolled around, I

figured, you know, what do

I do? And I really didn't want to go to

college. And like I said,

I was drawn to the Navy,

also in part because I was an exchange

student overseas. And I

thought, you know, it was

it was a time when it's like, yeah, we

have to value our

liberty and do something for

it. And so, you know, I was I was drawn

to that. And then of

course, the adventure part.

You know, when they say join the Navy,

see the world, you really

do. So but it was, yeah,

it was a sense of patriotic spirit. And

also looking, you know,

when you're on your own at

16 in high school, and I tell kids today,

you know, don't whine when

all you have to do is homework,

because I had to get an apartment, pay

rent, get all the insurance,

have a car, get the insurance,

work a full time job, get my own food, and

go to school, and do my homework.

Now you're leaving out the you're leaving

out climbing uphill both

ways in the snow. You need

to keep that part in.

Exactly. And you know, I mean, it was

it's not really good for a 16

year old to be on their own,

but I really wanted to feel like I was

part of something again. And

honestly, it was odd when I

got to boot camp. I tell people I

actually enjoyed boot camp because it's

like adults are yelling at

me, I feel like a kid again. And I didn't

even do anything again,

feel like a kid again. So yeah,

I was quite happy. And the Navy really

was family in many ways.

So yeah, I mean, like you started off

like how how you mentioned

boot camp, how how was that,

you know, before you was it always an

adventure? We did you know what was

coming next? Or were you

just kind of like, I'm along for the

ride? Yeah, I'm kind of was kind of along

for the ride. I mean,

you know, it, it had its tough moments, I

will say I do believe the

Marines have hands down the

toughest boot camp of all the services.

We weren't exactly a

cakewalk by any stretch of the

imagination. But you know, our company,

company commanders

introduced themselves. And the one guy

said, if you don't hate me now, you're

going to at nine weeks.

It's like, Oh, good. You know,

but I did that. That's a guarantee. Yeah,

it pretty much is, you

know, but it was structure.

And honestly, I think at 18, you think

you're an adult, but you're

still really technically very

much an adolescent. And after being two

years and a totally unstructured

everything on my own

environment, I liked the structure. And I

got through just fine. I

still have they give you two

report chits when you check in the boot

camp, and I still have both

of mine. So I never got written

up for anything. It's almost like, you

know, in a positive way,

like the story and you know,

it's a true story of like the man who

said, I just want to be

arrested so I can have some place to

sleep and play, you know, things to eat

and people to take care of me and be

around. And it's like,

that's, I get it, you know, I totally

like I just need

something that makes sense.

Yeah, I really do believe that's

important for teenagers in

particular, and probably 20

somethings to feel still like you're,

you're have more of a structured

environment. So fair enough.

Fair enough. Yeah, the the, you know, the

joke, not so much of a

joke phrase of like, make your

bed, take care of yourself, brush your

teeth, do the thing. And

it's easy to kind of feel like,

I would say, like an untethered balloon

where you go, great, I have ability, I

can float and fly, but

attached to what? Who am I connected to,

you know? And it gives

you a sense of community.

All right, I get that. And, you know, a

lot, a lot of men would say, you know,

this is a brotherhood. And I think that

that is not a word to

be thrown around lightly.

That's very true. It's, you know, and we,

I know the Marines,

the Army, the Air Force,

everybody feels the same way. But their

own particular service,

you feel very more connected

there. But you still feel a connection

with others. And so, you

know, I have a stepson now who was

in the Marines, he likes to say that they

were the men's department

of the Navy. And I like to

remind him that I outrank him. You're like,

good, sir. Not only can I take

you around and show you what's

what I'm an 01. So how about no? Well,

yeah, actually, in the

Navy, I retired as an 03.

03, pardon, I had that incorrect.

Technically, what's called

an 03E. So I was known as what

was called a Mustang because I was prior

enlisted. But it's like

flexing on them a little bit.

Oh, yeah. And I remind him just remember

old age and treachery will

take out youth and strength

anytime. Well, see, this is one of those

things that you can tell

like the phrase of like,

for the strength, dad's strength. Listen,

you know, that guy where

you're like, oh, he's kind of got

like a little bit of a belly and a set on

the other that man will

bury you. Don't play that game.

That's not a wise decision. No, that's

for sure. So yeah, that

so that's pretty much it.

So how about this? You go through and

you're, you know, just starting out, you

end, as you even said,

you know, an officer, how did you get to

be a geopolitical analyst?

Because that's not exactly

what, you know, usually the young men's

set out to be when they first get in.

Yeah, very true. You know, I was as an

enlisted rank, a cryptologic technician

working in the code world, I think,

honestly, one has to have more of an

engineering mindset to do

well in that. My commanding officer at

my, at the end of my first enlistment,

the captain called me

in and said, you need to go to college

and get commissioned. And

I'm going to send you letters

in school and checking up on you, make

sure you're being good and

all that. And he did actually.

So I ended up leaving the Navy and then I

got a recommendation from him. I got a

recommendation from that because he knew

people, the senior Republican in the

house of representatives

at that time sent the Navy secretary a

recommendation. So I

was given what was called

a direct commission because I had six

years of active duty,

almost seven and a half actually,

and, and reserve. And so, you know, I

became a commissioned

officer at that time still in

cryptology discovered I, that's an even

more advanced level of

engineering mindthink. And

it's like, I do not like this. I'm not a,

I'm not a numbers guy, but I

had worked with enough people

who were what were called geopolitical

analysts and decided I

wanted to do that. So in the Navy,

there's two designators, the career

numbers that are assigned. And I became,

I moved over to what

was called a 1630, uh, intelligence

officer. And part of what I studied in

school was the middle

east and Arabic. And so I was, uh,

plugged into a middle-eastern

geopolitical track at that point.

Okay. So that picture

was kind of painted there.

And I, and I love the

work. It was fascinating.

What a favorite, like obviously we're not

talking classified or otherwise, but

it like, what's taken really, really fun

bit. Like, did you just

got the most joy out of?

Well, I tell people, um, cause actually

went back to teach at the Intel school,

new, uh, junior officers coming in and I,

I told him, I used to read

like five newspapers a day,

not everything, just the new sections.

And, you know, it's

interesting to see what you can learn

and what they call open source material.

And then you know, something

about what's going on behind.

And it's like, so we read typically the

wall street journal, New York times,

LA times, Jerusalem post and the

Christian science monitor.

Um, and yeah, it's kind of

fun to put the puzzle together. Well, you

do your best too.

When you're learning, um,

I was during the first Gulf war doing the

overnight briefing for

the admiral and nothing

went on. So I thought, well, I'm, I'm

doing my own spin on this

today. And I get up and I do my,

my presentation and the admirals looking

at me like this. And he said, well, Sean,

whose assessment is that? I said, well,

sir, it's mine. Am I

wrong? And he's like,

and the captain behind him said, Oh, for

crying out loud, don leave

the kid alone. It's as good

as anything I've heard. And I thought,

you know, break out the

giant rubber stamp. Good enough.

There we go. Well, I mean, you know,

there are times you learn by

doing just like anything else.

And now, you know, then after years I

became much more seasoned at it. Um, and

so, because you have

more experience, exposure, knowledge

base. So, but yeah, that was one of my

early things. It's like,

well, I think this means that. And yeah,

fair enough. Like your,

your guess is as good as any,

who knows? Yeah. Who the hell came up

with that? It was a slow

Tuesday. Leave me be. Yes. Quite

right. So I'll ask, I'll ask a different,

uh, adjacent question, a

little different query.

What is a story that you are ever so glad

that smartphones were

not around to record?

Oh gosh. Um, yeah. On at work or on

leave. Um, you know, I say this much

dealer's choice, good sir

you get to play it how you like.

Well,

I mean, you know, sailors that leave in, in Key West,

we just got back from

visiting there and the aviators first

time I went down there,

took me, they said, well,

we're taking you to the hog tonight. It's

like, why is there a hog on

Key West? And why do I care?

They said, it's not a hog. It's the hog

and it's the hog's breath saloon, uh,

which you may be able

to see as my sign back here. I see it, I

see it. So, you know, we

went there and, and who knows

what all went on, but I, it was, it's a

classic aviators bar. It

still has that vibe today,

you know, but yeah, you kind of let your

hair down, what little you

have, um, and just really,

yeah. And you probably use words. Your

mom would be like, I did not teach my

baby to speak that way.

Well, you are like kind of, you know,

wearing the, uh, you

swear like a sailor. I mean,

it's in the title.

And it's, it's funny though that when I

became an officer and a gentleman per,

as my brother points out, I took an act

of Congress to make me a gentleman.

Um, at least I got there.

One out of two, ain't bad?

Exactly. Perfect. Now, you know, for,

for, I can, I can tell one of my favorite

things that happened

are most interesting things. I was

stationed in Alaska, um, on watch it's

the middle of the night.

Because I work in the area that I worked

at, I was inside the vault

and this knock on the door and I opened

it up and it's the watch officer.

She hands me a loaded 45 and said, I

don't know what's going on,

but somebody just kicked in the

front door. They had four more locked

doors to go through to

get to us. Um, and she said,

if someone hands you a sidearm and says,

you know, it's time to go.

That's, that's not a funny ha ha

moment. No, it wasn't, but it worked out

and it's sort of an odd way. It's like,

she said, as far as I'm

concerned, we're under attack and

lines have been cut. And it's like, so

she said, do what you do.

And keep in mind, I was, I'm a 19 year

old enlisted cryptologist and what I was

taught to do is send

out what they call the flash messages,

which I did. We were in

Alaska. I sent it to Elmendorf

air force base, Kim, Cammy said, Japan

and Pearl Harbor, Hawaii.

Well, unbeknownst to us,

air force one is sitting on the tarmac at

the North air force

base, ready to take off.

And they delayed it. Okay. So yeah, we

don't know what's going

on. And then sure enough,

about 40 minutes later, she knocked on

the door and she said,

well, it turned out the

Marines were conducting an exercise and

how to invade a space and

didn't tell anybody about it.

And I go pale because I'm getting these

calls from like, you know, senior

officer, what the hell

was going on up there, young man? And,

and it's like, I have not

gotten anything more. I will

let you know as soon as I can. And they

said, and we have air

force one waiting to take off.

So I told her all

that. And she's like, okay.

Okay. The appropriate response of is

there more to this story?

I don't think it gets any worse than you

put the air force one on hold.

But it, you know, so maybe within half an

hour, the commanding

officer, the executive officer,

my division officer, my division chief

are all in the vault with me and I'm

scared to death thinking,

what the hell did I do? And the watch

officer too. And she's like,

what did we do? And, and the

CO turned to chief and said, damn chief,

when you teach your kids to

turn to and carry out the plan

of the day, by God they do. Well, by

that point, air force one had been

alerted. Okay. It was

a non-emergency. They took off. It was

fine. Apparently the

president wasn't even aware.

It didn't care. Even the next day,

apparently I'm told he found the whole

thing rather amusing.

With the brandy, like

that sounds hilarious.

I can picture some poor child, you know,

19 year old kid

shaking with the 1911, like,

Oh no, what am I doing? What am I doing?

I'm not even done with

adolescence and they're going to

send me to Leavenworth. And yeah, so you

see it turned out rather,

and it turns out the Marines

figured that out on their own. The, the

Marine CO on the Island

got some trouble for that.

And, uh, as well, he should have. Cause

it's like, you know,

breaking to somebody else's command

without informing the CO that, you know,

um, so, but they, I mean,

you can, but you also may, uh,

kind of turn red on from the inside out.

Like that's, that's a quick

way to find out as the phrase

goes, you know, Oh yeah. But the watch

officer and I, we were

just fine. Um, okay. You know,

so the president apparently wasn't

annoyed at all. I mean, it delayed his

flight, maybe an hour. Um,

okay. But yeah, that's wild. See, that's

one of those weird timing

things where you go like, well,

the clocks aligned and it was half past

stupid. And you go like, well, what did

they do? And they're

like, well, they ran an op and you go,

was this the time or the place to run an op?

You go, "no!" The funny thing is we had, you

know, because we worked

with aviators and so I had to

erase all of the boards that they had in

theirs and then shred a

bunch of material. And I was

taught, if you have a thermite grenade,

you put it on top of the

safe, pull the plug and it melts

down and destroys. And the CO is like,

damn, it's a good thing. We didn't give

the boy any thermite

grenades or any of these people. Cause he

would have melted the

safes, I would have because

that's why I was like, you're lucky you

didn't give him shape

charges. Like, you know what,

let's have some fun today. Like why not?

Exactly. And so, you know,

and that gave her back to the

watch officer back her loaded 45. But

yeah, I mean, you know, it's

like, come on, I don't even

shave yet. You people are doing this to

me. That is wild.

Okay. So going from that,

thank you so much. That's brilliant. So

like fast forwarding a

bit, like fast forward,

just a touch like near the end of your

service, like what, what

kind of drove your decision to

retire? Well, I, um, on eight and Alaska

where I was stationed, I, uh, I was

enlisted and then I got

out and then I went to London actually

and got out after London,

went out back to the United

States, went to college in a reserve

unit. And that's when I got

commissioned. Um, and I got out

of university and with a degree in

journalism and worked one job, two jobs

in TV and decided this

really is not for me. So I looked at the

Navy and I went back on active duty,

this time as an, as an ensign, an O1.

And, um, you know, uh, with the hope of,

I joined it, I went on active duty as a

reservist, hoping to

be picked up for, um,

full time active duty, regular commission

kind of thing. And at, at the

end of two and a half years,

the, uh, Senate cut the number of

approved intelligence

officers in the Navy by 48%.

And so there was nowhere for me to be

promoted to. So I said,

okay, I guess I'll get out and go

to graduate school. And that's what I

did. Um, but I stayed in the reserve the

whole time. And so I

was able to travel to Thailand and Hawaii

and places like that and

get my full 20 years, um,

and retired as a, as an O3

"lefttenant", as y'all might say.

"Lefttenant", indeed. Yeah. No,

it's, it's always that

thing where when you talk

British Royal Navy and then you talk

States Navy, it's like

only, only small differences,

only small differences. Yes. We learned

quite a bit of our traditions

from the British Royal Navy.

I would never, ever to this day, toast

anyone at an evening meal

or anywhere else with water.

Gin, like gins of coffee, juice, milk,

anything, but, but water. And

we get that from the British

Navy because the belief is if you toast

somebody with water as a

naval person and a sailor will

drown. So fair play. Well, the thing

about it is there's actually

an old, old, uh, like it's,

it's been made into like popular like

cocktail culture and all of

that in the past decade or so.

But if you've ever heard of like a pink

gin, you actually have the

British Royal Navy to thank for

that. Because as you know, being a

sailor, ice is scarce on a boat. You

don't have like fresh,

fresh milk is, is rarity and ice is also

a rarity. And what ends up

happening is, you know, ages ago,

the, um, their daily rations would

include Plymouth, um, Navy

strength, gin, and it would

also come with Angostura bitters. And you

go, well, what am I

supposed to do with this? It's

not like we can go to, you know, London

and have a party. So what

they figured out this like

absolute amazing bit of alchemy is if you

put just enough of the

Angostura in with the gin to

pink it, it, it's, it's like turning lead

into gold. Like you, you,

you tasted and you go like,

there's sugar in this, there's this and

this. And you go like, it's, there's

nothing except these

really complicated, very loud

ingredients. So yeah, again,

just the British Royal Navy.

Yeah, quite right. Absolutely not. So

let's, let's do it this

way. You're out. You're done.

You're, you're civilian. What was the

moment that kind of

crystallising moment where you realized,

okay, this is going to

be a little bit different.

You know, I was, as I noted, I was

trained as a Middle Eastern Islamic

geopolitical officer and

the Navy and its infinite wisdom first

assigned me to NCIS and

the Navy Yard, which I loved.

And it does look exactly well, very close

to the office on the TV

show. You know, and I enjoyed

that. But then when I moved West to

continue graduate school,

they took me out of that unit

and put me in one in Aurora and their

focus was on the Korean

peninsula. And it's like,

I know nothing about the Korean

peninsula. I'm a Middle

Eastern expert. And I really don't

exactly look Korean just to say, well,

yeah, most internal officers don't have.

Oh no, it just, it needed to be poked

very hard of all the

things you're going to look

like it's not. Yeah. Well, that's true.

And, you know, it's an interesting

geopolitical situation.

I was more fascinated by Thailand and

Burma, but so I found a unit

where I was able to move over

for like two and a half, three years that

focused back on the Middle

Eastern stuff. And then for

some reason the other one fell short. And

so it's like the Godfather

movie line. It's like just

when I think I've gotten away, they pull

me back. And I ended

up staying there my last

few years. And it just was not, that's

when I realized, okay,

as soon as I hit my 20 or

eligibility, I'm out. I just, I don't

like this work anymore. Yeah.

So let's do it this way. What

all of a sudden, you know, like day two,

you're a civilian. What did

not translate well, like coming

from it being two decades in the military

to going to like great,

I'm a civilian. What just

didn't translate? You know, I think

probably the sense of

community, you have to figure out

a new community to find and be part of,

but even the work

relationships that I did, I became a

landscape architect, worked for, you

know, municipal and county and government

as a land use planner,

development planner. And I worked with a

lot of great people, but you

know, the sense of belonging

and pride and being part of something

just didn't exist there. For

most people, it was a job that

they loved maybe, but just a job. And,

you know, that's an

extremely common thing. And

questions of like, well, what helped you

adjust? And like, what,

I've said this before, and I'm

sure you have the exact same thing. Well,

it's sort of like a weird

death in a way you go like, well,

guess what? None of that makes sense

anymore. Kind of like what,

what helped you like, you know,

kind of get back into the world and find

your, you know, your crew,

your groups and all of that.

I think a lot of it came from the fact

that I was on my own so

young, I was very adaptable.

You know, and because I managed to stay

the 20 years, I managed to

retain my military benefits.

And so, you know, we'll go to the local

Air Force base for commissary

run, we can shape privileges

like at the Hale Koei and Oahu, which is

a military resort. And

so when I get back into

those places, I feel very much more like

I'm surrounded by long lost friends.

At home, welcome all of that.

Yeah, yeah. And even in Key West, even

though it's been several

decades since I've been there

and was stationed there, you know, it's

like, this was home to me

for a while. And, you know,

it's like Virginia Beach and Hawaii and

London. I took my wife to

visit London and I said,

this isn't just a visit to a city, which

is interesting. It was

my home. And I'm very

attached to that. And so that's that kept

me grounded. But yeah,

this is just the early

experience of being on my own. It's like,

well, if you, what are you

going to do? You got to get up

or give up, give up or get up. So I

always choose to get up.

So how about this? Was there anything

that you needed to, let's say,

unlearn like, oh, can't do that anymore.

Well, you know, not really so much. I, it

just makes the reason I

laugh is I was a military

contractor in Afghanistan in 2011. And I

came back from that

compound and, and my wife is like,

you have got to put correct that language

because, you know, you get

to a point where every word is

not one that she wanted to hear. And it's

like, you come back and you go, pardon,

that was a little bit off

the cuff. I apologise. Exactly.

I have to laugh because,

you know, being British, the

you always make everything sound so

elegant. It's like, oh, well, we can also

have the horse you rode in on. Yeah,

well, that's true, though.

But the thing about it is we can

also go like, because like when people

say like, oh, do a British

accent and you go which one we

have 200. Like if you go, like, yeah, if

you go like East end

London, like, oh, well, you know,

sort you out, like you can get, you can

get a little bit on

the on the rougher and

depending on where you go. So yeah,

that's very true. Horses for courses.

Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. This caught me that

apples and pears, apples

and pears get up those stairs.

Like there's a there's some deeper cuts.

So like talking about

having a drink like,

would you fetch us a pig's ear? Pig's ear

beer. Oh, okay. Okay. And

that's one of those ones where

you're like, I'll fetch us a pig's ear,

would you? And you go,

okay, now we're talking code.

Yeah, you know, and so that was really

pretty much it. But when I got off,

you know, active duty into reserve and

being just a single

college student hanging out with

college friends, it was less of an issue

how you spoke. So you sort

of gradually realise when

you're at home, remember, parents and

uncles are watching. And you're not

you're not on an active

construction site mind the tongue.

Exactly. And so you, you you fit in. But

fair play. Fair play.

Yeah. Okay. Well, I'll just say to the

guests in the in the

house, if you are enjoying this

conversation as much as we are enjoying

having it smash that

subscribe button. Now, I'll say this.

Now, all of that, blah, blah, blah, all

of you know, like gloss over your life.

What are you doing now?

Well, as you noted, it's another complete

turn and direction in my

life. I run a non profit. We're

focused on what is the mission there?

Well, our mission is in the

fight against child trafficking,

specifically sex trafficking, but also,

you know, bringing up

awareness of labor trafficking.

Often the two go hand in hand. And I do

provide a voice for for

boys in the public arena. The

reason I was on my own at 16 is because I

became a very angry

teenager's teenager because

as a preteen, I had been sex trafficked

myself for nearly five

years. And my family had no clue

because of the way the network operated.

You know, there's a myth that

all kids are stolen away and

disappeared. Yes, that certainly does

happen more often than people

might like to admit. But yeah,

I was I was routinely handed over and

then brought back after a

few hours and, you know,

as if nothing had happened kind of thing.

Right. And you learn to hide

stuff very well. And so now

you know, my mom and dad divorced. And,

you know, that's when

we moved away from that

town just for a turn to age 10. And we

moved to another state.

But you know, 10 to 11,

I was sort of like, okay, yeah, I'm away

from it. But other predators

would still find me and to my

teens. And essentially, at some point, my

mom decided to remarry,

which she did and then

moved to want to move to a different

state. Well, I'm in the

middle of high school, you know,

I'm about to go into my junior year.

Yeah, that's not the time of place. So

it's just, you know,

so I ended up living with my sister for a

year. And then I lived with

my brother. And, and but in

terms of when I say living, I had my own

key, I was responsible for

my own life. And that's why I

was on my own. And I really learned

quickly, it's like, I do not like this, I

want to feel like I'm

part of something again. So that brings

it back full circle. Yeah,

the military thing. But yeah,

what I do is I speak now to educate the

public on what

trafficking looks like. It's a very

constantly moving target. I teach people

that that boys are in fact,

likely half the victims in the

United States and globally as well. I

talk about how it can be, you

know, what things parents can

do to keep their kids safe. I do. I go to

Congress and I lobby for

legislation. I'm part of a survivor

council group out of New York. And my

most recent thing is I work with a

nonprofit out of the UK

called the justice defenders. And they

help people in Africa and

three countries who've been falsely

incarcerated get, get out of prisons.

They are faith based like my

organisation is faith based.

And a friend of mine, Bruce, who was in

prison himself for many

years, got out and connected

with them. And he said, I, I have told

them all about you. So you're

going to get a call. Keep in

mind, Bruce is like, like six foot five,

very strong and, and

very black. And he's like,

and I don't want any back talk or sass.

It's like, I love

Bruce. He's an amazing man,

but he's a gentle giant really. But so I

get a call from the director and he said,

we encounter a lot of people with your

past who are in prison because

they were abused as children.

They simply don't know how to trust

anyone we can love on them. We're, you

know, a Christian faith

based organization. We can teach them

about all kinds of things.

But if they're not willing to

believe that they're worth being loved,

they'll never receive our

help. Would you come to Africa

to be our voice? And I said, yes. So in

May of last year, I was in,

or this year, I was in Kenya.

We were supposed to go to Uganda last

month and didn't. But

upcoming trips are planned, but

that's an amazing bit of work because I

got to speak in five

prisons and 11 days in Kenya.

And I am an ordained pastor now. And so

I, you know, I was able to

give a message and tell people,

first of all, it was never your fault.

Don't let the world define

you, you know, and there's,

and give them all kinds of reasons to

say, let down your guard just one more

time and let justice

defenders help you. And maybe they can

get you set free. And every single prison

I had people tell me,

okay, I'll try. Wow. And, you know, this

is like the worst case of

pound puppies. You go like,

would you just let me touch you? Just,

just let me touch you so we can talk.

Like that's it. Yeah.

Very true. I mean, and you can see it

pulls up emotions in me

because I see, you know,

what happened to me in the past. I'm now

able to help people with that.

And that's one facet of my work now. But

yeah, I'm, there were

times in my life when,

honestly, I was very much like that. It's

like, can somebody just, you know,

hold me or love me. And it's like, you

don't, you don't want to

be touched by anyone. But

I don't even know if it's a want, but you

feel like you just can't, you know, like,

it's that thing of like, I don't think I

don't, I think as long as

someone has a heartbeat,

they always have the want, but there,

there can be just so much

piled on top of it where you go,

but I can't though, you know,

that's very, that's a great way to

describe it because, you know, and I'm

not there anymore. But

you know, if I was visiting some players

at a church or

somewhere in a strange man,

and sometimes a woman too would hug me,

my first thought would be,

okay, would do I have to perform

Jesus. You know, because they put that

into you. Now I don't

feel that way any longer.

Then you get sort of processed that you

realise you get to a point

where you say to yourself,

no one touches me unless they want

something. And you really, you get

through that and you get

through all these things. I had so many

people in the prisons in

Kenya asked to be hugged. And it's

like, absolutely, I can. And you're like,

I'm not going anywhere. We'll

hug for 13 minutes. We'll do

this. You know, and what they told me was

because I tear up often when I speak, um,

the Kenyans we worked with, and it's

really important from

African men to see that because we

to set, set it up for you. We tell them

this man's come from halfway

around the world just to talk

to you. And he has a powerful story and

horrible things happen and be

prepared because he delivers

a message unlike you've ever seen. And I

get up there at points, I've

got tears and they're like,

you're allowed to cry. Yes, you are. I'm

going to say one thing. I'm

going to say one thing as an

interjection. You used a word that I

don't really like. I'll say

it this way. You said the word

things happen to me. Now I can say it

like this. You, you know,

you've studied, um, what we can

call coincidences and you look at

patterns and you study all of that, but I

can say it like this. The,

you know, the butterfly flaps its wings.

Everything, everything is

connected one way or the other.

And to say that something happened to you

is like dismissive to

me where you can say,

oh, well, you know, the wind happened to

blow across my face. I'll

say, I say bad things were

done to you because that, that ascribes

the responsibility. It's

not something that, oh,

it just happened. It just happened. It

didn't, it didn't just

happen. This was done.

Yeah. I love that. Um, a lot of times

when I've spoken in the West

and this also wasn't true in

Kenya, people say, well, you know, I'll

talk to people ahead of

time. So what we're really

talking about here is child rape. Yeah.

And they're like, say the

words, say the word because that's

what it is. Call it. And they don't want

you to use that word. And

so, you know, I've learned to

soften it up somewhat for American

audiences. Alexander McLean

who founded justice defender

said, don't soften it up here. Call it

what it is. Call it wrong.

And I said, you know, so I'd

never been told that before. Now I'm

getting to a point and I love

what you just said. It's not

things happen to you. It's not like it's

not a breeze in the wind.

This was a decision. It was,

and you can quote me on this. Bad people

do bad things. That's a

fast. Well, I'm going to say

this. I detest that this was done to you.

I thank you for soldiering

on. Thank you very much. It's,

I found my purpose. And, you know, I get

it. This is not what I picked, but it is.

But, you know, I look along the way. I

mean, I tell people,

look, it's a rare day

when I don't relive those events in my

mind, but from a

theological perspective, it's like,

it's a terrible thing to lay down on

yourself a life sentence

when God holds the pardon in his

hand. I can say it this much. I can say

it this much when all

that, all that is is noise. You

know, it's one of those things where the,

the kind of urchins from the

past always want to steal the

light from me from tomorrow. And here's

the big thing that they

always forget. The big, big thing.

Laughter, joy, all of that. And you go,

you know what? I went

bowling for the past two and a half

hours and I didn't think about you once

because you're just a shade.

And that's the thing. That's

the thing to remember when you go like,

no. And I think that's the thing that

people forget is it's

easy to forget that you have the power,

the ability to say no.

Right. And that's everything,

you know, it's, I have had people say,

just let it all go. Well,

that's not exactly easy to do.

We can't, exactly. And it's like, we

can't change the past, but what we can

change is what we let

it do to us. Definitely. And so now, you

know, I remember I'm not there. I realize

and I'm making a difference. One of the

stories I told him in Kenya

was I said, they asked me why

Kenya, why Africa? And I said, because I

want to see the lions. And they're like,

well, don't get too close. They'll, they

might be in the mood for American food.

It's like, and so I told him when I was

about six or seven and a

lot of that was going on,

my mom gave me a book about the animals

in Kenya. Sure. And you

know, it was proof to me that,

that all the stuff that happened didn't

take away my innocence as

a child. Because I remember

reading the story thinking, if I could

just get to Kenya and

hang out with those lions,

they would keep those, they would keep me

safe. And, you know, you

don't think, no, they'd look

at you as a nice little snack. But you

know, because a little

kid, you think, yeah, I'll go

hide behind the line. Well, and I, I told

him in Kenya, I said, the

ironic thing is the very thing

that I was trying to escape from the US

as a little kid and come to

Kenya is, is now what draws me

here in the end anyway. I'll tell you,

I'll say it from Rudyard

Kipling. Keep, keep reading about

the animals. Yeah. I mean, it's just, and

then I heard a real lion's

roar. I wrote an article for

justice defenders. And when you hear a

real lion the first time, I've never

heard a surround sound

that imitates that fact. It scared the

bejeebers out of me. We

were at our outdoor restaurant

and I hear this roar and the Kenyan

staffers said, ah, you heard

one of our lions. Yeah. Yeah.

Is he real? He said, oh, he's very real.

And is he just over

this wall? He said, oh no,

if he were there, we wouldn't be here.

He's about two miles away.

Two miles or harbor many meters. That is

a way. It's like, but you

know, you hear that. And then

I found out an African lions roar can be

heard up to five miles

distant on the Savannah. There you

go. And, you know, um, it's, it's a very

powerful thing. And so, but

yeah, that it's just ironic.

The thing I wanted to get away from to

see the lions is not what

you call home. Yeah. It brought

me there in the end to be. So, you know,

it's a good thing. There you go. Okay.

I mean, these, these, I can't thank you

enough. These are amazing

stories and thank you, sir.

But like with all of this, which is just

kind of, if you wrote it

down, no one would believe it.

I'll say it that way. Like it's, it's

just wild. What, what would

you like want people to know

about, you know, like your story and

veterans and like just

today talking about all of the,

oh, well, I've been left alone or I

needed something. I needed to be

together. What's the

thing that like, if you could give like

the thought to civilians

and go like this will help.

Oh, I'm, I'm not really sure. I think,

you know, I do get

asked sometimes it's like,

how come the veterans get all this

healthcare and stuff and everybody else

doesn't. And it's like,

well, first of all, 1.5 to maybe 2% of

the entire population are

veterans. So 98% of you live off

the freedom that we went there to defend.

You know, so that's, it's not

like it's just handed to us,

but unfortunately in the area, I live in

Colorado, Larimer County is the second

highest, most veteran

suicide area in the country, or at least

is very highly rated and

veterans commit suicide for a

lot of reason. In fact, you know, the

last time I was actually

abused was at my very first duty

station. And that's when I finally drew a

line in the sand and said,

no, whatever is going to take

advantage of me again. And they tried to,

you know, I think the intent was to get

me booted out of the

Navy on a medical discharge and it didn't

work. And I managed to

stay 20 years. So, you know,

but veterans are, and service people are,

I don't want to say necessarily unique.

Well, we are unique.

There's a lot of different types of

unique. I mean, we're, it

was good for me, but, you know,

we need to not turn our backs on them. We

have too many homeless vets.

I will say some of them choose

that. And that's fine. But it's like, if

you have resources that are available,

don't want to use them,

then that's your choice. But, you know,

it just really,

everybody's got a story. And, and

like I said, it's a rare day. I don't

remember stuff, but in, in,

in many ways, I've had a very

good life and I'm, and I'm not unhappy

with how it's been. And so

I've had my odd adventures. I

mean, who can say they put Air Force One

on hold? Okay. Let's do this. I

don't want another person to

do that, but yeah, I mean, you're one of

two. You're one of two. Yeah. Okay. Let's

go a little bit lighter.

What is like a telly show or a film or

something that you just love

and it can be something that

it's so stupid and that like it's bad and

it's hilarious because

it's bad. It can be because

they nailed it and you've like, Oh, they,

they did this so well. It's

like, I can taste how accurate

that is. Like what's the thing that jumps

out to you? I think there

are two. There's, you know,

I've always thought the TV show M.A.S.H.

really nailed it because it

captures the dramatic side of,

and I've talked to Korean veterans who

are like, yeah, they really

sort of nailed, but it also

captures the community side. And, you

know, when I was a

junior enlisted and I was on

in my off hours in a house party or

something, the lieutenant

would say, just call me Phil.

You know, if you let your guard down the

workspace, you wouldn't

call them by their first. Yeah.

Yeah. Yeah. But you know, it was the mash

really showed both the

challenges, but also the community

relationship. One that cracks me up is

Kelsey Grammer was in a submarine movie

called Up Periscope.

Down Periscope. Down Periscope. It's one

of my absolute

favourites. Oh my goodness. They're

saying, you really want that guy? He has

a tattoo on his member that says welcome

aboard. And I thought,

you know, it's crude, but I would drink

with this man. Like I

can quote, I can quote that

film verbatim. It's like, tell them about

the Mermansk brushing

instant incident and you go like,

yeah, no, that's. And there are pieces of

junk that the military

has that they've held on to

forever. And yet the U.S.S. Rustoleum Yeah, exactly.

So I mean, those would

be, those would be two.

Good war movies out and, you know, it's

not that war is good, but if it's the

telling of the story,

I think one another one I love, which is

sort of in between is

called the final countdown

where an aircraft carrier goes back in

time. You know, a little

different of a tale. Yeah. Yeah.

Oh my goodness. Well, Sean, I can say

thank you so much for

coming. And finally,

for everyone that have been just

journeying along with

this, with this story,

how can they find you? How

can they connect with you?

Well, and you're free to share on any

post. My website is

www.starfishcolorado.org.

And the name of our organization, the

Starfish Ministries

Colorado. And it has my email phone,

contact information. And so that's,

that's a great way to connect and they

can see the interviews

I've done. You know, my book is on there

if they're interested in

some of that too. I mean, it's,

it's all starfishcolorado.org is a good

place to connect. And I get

it, it has, and I do respond

to my email. Well, there we go. Okay.

Well, listen, this has

been absolutely brilliant. And

thank you again. And you know, we'll,

we'll have plenty more in

the next episode. Cheers all.